I awoke to the news that Osama Bin Laden had been killed at some point whilst I slept. A myriad of emotions swept my heart and mind all at the same time: relief, fear, and sadness were among them, but I can honestly say not joy. Is it good that justice has been served? Yes. I'm sure for those directly affected by the events of 9/11 this feels good and right. Finally, the one responsible for all that loss has been stopped. Is our world a better place with Bin Laden dead? Yes, although there is likely an up and comer more than willing to take his place. Even so, the fight against terrorism is important and this represents a big victory over a very elusive enemy. But having said that, I am now going to risk sounding very self-righteous and comment that the shouts of jubilation and even joy at Bin Laden's "burning in hell" have deeply troubled me. As I perused Facebook this morning, I found some of the comments deeply disturbing. It felt quite vengeful and blood-thirsty. Is our quest for revenge what drives our joy?
And in the midst of it all a couple of breaths of fresh air...two comments and one scripture quote really hit me:
"
As some Americans celebrate Osama's death, as others around the world re-process the grief and continued suffering from terrorism, or maybe violence, or poverty, I wonder tonight, what is/should this conversation be centered around for Christ-followers?"
"Woke up to The News. I understand the secular responses, but Christians using words like "rejoice" to express their reaction? Seriously? A word the Psalms give us for praising God, and we're going to use it to celebrate the death of an enemy? God help us." (A friend in London who also was sleeping whilst said news broke) and finally a powerful scripture passage: "As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live." (Ezekiel 33:11)
It's awkward to write this post because I risk sounding so self-righteous. That is honestly not the case for me. I am just so deeply concerned with how our world uses violence and revenge to solve problems. And there is a very real and present danger that a retaliation for America's action will emerge. We should at least be humble about what's happened, recognizing that our jubilation is exactly the kind of reaction that incites the terrorist world. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be relieved and even glad that a prominent terrorist has been caught and killed, but honestly, I don't get the rejoicing or the jubilation. I know that some will think I'm not patriotic enough or that I'm somehow pro-terrorist or anti-American. Nothing could be further from the truth. But beyond those labels I am a Christian who believes in redemption and to that end, I believe our reaction should be tempered by the love of God, which knows no limit. I'm glad they caught Bin Laden. I feel mixed about the fact that they shot him to death. I'm not questioning the reasoning, I just struggle with avenging wrong with more violence and killing. Perhaps they had no choice. So be it. It still feels a bit uncomfortable for me.
Finally, since this is likely an unpopular post anyway, I'm going to go out on the Obama limb a bit. It's amazing to me how many conservatives are already finding ways to criticize the President even when he's accomplished something that they have wanted for years. Did Obama act alone? Of course not. Did things that past presidents do help him? Likely. But the truth of the matter is this: Osama Bin Laden was brought down under President Barack Obama's watch. He should get credit for this. He followed the intelligence, he tracked the process, he had the courage to act and he gave the order. If this goes wrong, he gets blamed for invading Pakistan and there is no end to the criticism that comes his way. But it didn't go wrong. It went right and something that Americans have been longing for for a very long time came to fruition while he was president. I just wish people who don't like the President would at least acknowledge that he's maybe a tad smarter than they thought, just a little more on the ball than they would like to think. Look, Reagan thinks he brought down the Berlin Wall and stopped the cold war all by his lonesome. That too is a misrepresentation of history. He deserves credit because that happened on his watch. I think we all know that no one President or administration acts alone. What drives this inability to acknowledge that Obama has done a great thing? What I really wish is that the partisan cynicism could just stop for one brief moment while we all take in the accomplishment of a goal that most Americans have longed for...no matter who is responsible.
Finally, I close with my own scripture reference: Romans 12: 17-19: 'Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord.' I do not read this as a call to not pursue justice but rather to pursue justice in a Godly, non-vengeful manner. We have to figure out how to bring justice to situations where great harm has been done without perpetuating the very violence and terror that struck us in the first place.
OK...Time to get down from my soap box. My prayers are for peace and for healing of relationships between religions and for political opponents to come together to accomplish what is good and right for all people. May God show us the way as we seek peace and grace and redemption.
Good post. I have allready heard other Christians say that they thought it was wrong to bury him at sea, and that he should have been wrapped in pigskin and draged across the streets, thus going back to the most primitive emotions.
ReplyDeleteI have full respect that relatives to victims in Kenya and Tanzania and the US and the rest of the world feels like this. But for others I think its wise to be calm. It is hard to not make the political comment you do wgen so much racism and lack of decency is shown from people who are supposed to be Christians. Seriously, the fact that O'Reily calls himself christian makes it very confusing. If those values are Christian, then what on earth are we the rest who are not xenophobic, "no healthcare for poor-people","ban biology","yeah to capital punishment" supporters.
Jodi, This is well said, and I agree with you heartily. Is it because we both live "over the pond?" or is it that we feel Christian in our beliefs and feelings? I love your scriptural references, and I also thoroughly agree with you about the US conservative feelings against President Obama. It's hard to do much good when so many are questioning your birthright and ability to help the country you serve! I remember the words of Jesus when he said, "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's..." which to means that we should support the government we are under and not tear it down. Thank you for your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteSue Frick
Thank you Petter and Sue...it's good to dialogue around these difficult issues and to wrestle with what we should really be about as followers of Jesus. Thanks for checking in!
ReplyDeleteI can't believe that I am going to admit to something, that in after thought was so silly and swinging on the fence of incredulous.
ReplyDeleteOK, here it is...
I awoke this morning at 0600, tuned in the BBC to witness President Obama telling us that they had found and killed Osama. For a brief weird moment I thought I was watching an old video and could not figure out who he tracked down and killed! It has been so long since we spoke of that man, and years to finally hunt him down that my brain would not connect to the facts he was saying.
I am sure it was less than a minute but, I felt very stupid. After I finally digested what had happened, I felt very much like Jody. I really did not jump for joy, whoop it up in my living room. I just stared blankly at the TV wondering who the next bearded monster would be to rear their ugly ways? I found myself humming the tune to Ding Dong the witch is dead.
Jody, I really agree with your testament that we should not rejoice, we should look to heal the many wounds this man and his maniacal friends have reigned down on us. I am hoping that his death can now transform into a united peace. Much like when Hitler was finally brought down. Great thoughts and thanks for your blog. Rich
I am sorry, I meant Limbaugh not O´Reilly. Considering that Fox declared Obama dead today, I guess my mistake counts as a minor in comparison.
ReplyDeletejodi - i loved reading your thoughts today. i was talking to my parents about this exact thing - how it feels wrong to celebrate the death of someone. i had a difficult but good conversation with lars and evelyn about this tonight. they both weren't alive for 9/11 - but they both understood that rejoicing over someone's death is not what jesus would want us to do. thanks for your great thoughts and for sharing them! i wish we lived closer.
ReplyDeleteJodi,
ReplyDeleteA good friend sent me the link to your blog post yesterday. Your words hit exactly what I felt-gave my thoughts a place to be all day. Since her post of your blog on FB had several comments, her post is showing this morning on my top news feed and I glanced at your name. I trust my good friend, felt no need to research who the author was. Glad I saw it today. Great post, thanks for the words. Amy Olson Van Putten
(and now I wonder if my friend knows you) :)
Amy and Becky...thanks for your comments. It has been wonderful to know that there are (many) like minded people struggling with this complex situation. Becky...good for you and Steve for taking time to walk through this stuff with your kids. I too wish we were closer. Thanks again for leaving a comment.
ReplyDeleteHi Jodi, I agree with your sentiments, but find it ironic you title your entry "Healing, Not Harming Rhetoric." While I agree that we have to be careful, as Christians, how we deal with the current events, your contention that somehow you are going to be "unpopular" with a Christian audience by speaking about, essentially, God's love for the sinner, comes off a wee bit silly. And, this is from someone who basically agrees with what you have written! But what really bothers me is your comments meant to disparage those with whom you obviously have a political difference. I have listened to a lot of news and I am not aware of people, as you have written, "conservatives", who have done anything but give credit to our President. Yes, people have stated that this good work started in the previous administration. PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID THIS! I don't know what news sources you have listened to, but Obama "bashing" has not been the theme in anything I have heard concerning this news story, to the contrary. I guess I'm bothered by the constant effort to politicize spiritual issues. To bring your point across, did you need to take a swipe at conservatives, Bush, or even Reagan? An honest approach and a sincere desire to address this issue would not have. Does such behavior build unity in the Body? I think I can safely say no. Unfortunately, some clergy try to use their position to push their own agendas "wrapped up" in a biblical theme or with a biblical truth. While you had a good message, you have betrayed your agenda, undermined her own sincerity, and offended others when you didn't need to. A good message was diluted. How very sad.
ReplyDeleteSorry for the double post. I didn't mean for it to be anonymous.
ReplyDeleteTodd,
ReplyDeleteThanks for coming in again and adding your name. I appreciate that but I know a few Todd's so not entirely sure I know who this is. First, to think that this post might be unpopular based on the reactions of Christians on Facebook was not misguided. The risk of coming off unpatriotic or anti-American was present for me and many American Christians define their spirituality by such links. I have since felt an outpouring of support for having the courage to write this, which indicates to me that many were fearful of expressing their concerns. Secondly, it was not my intention to take a swipe at conservatives, per se. If it came off that way, I'm sorry. I was interested in challenging some of the attitudes I was seeing. I was amazed that some people are still unable to grant President Obama any credit for anything good. They are hell bent on being against him. That is their perogative, but in this case, I found it unfair. I will say this...in the first 24 hours of the chatter I was getting, there was much comment from the more conservative sector that Obama is taking too much credit for this. The real cynical response came from those who felt he was taking this action as a political ploy to distract people from the things that are making them unhappy. That irritated me to no end. Others said things like this will make him more popular...well, shouldn't it? My reference to Reagan was simply to point out that both sides like to take all the credit they can for any major happening. This posturing is not new. I do not feel that I took a swipe at Bush. Not sure where that perspective is coming from. I fully noted that Obama did not act alone and that prior intelligence was likely a big factor. I quote the blog on a major point here: "What I really wish is that the partisan cynicism could just stop for one brief moment while we all take in the accomplishment of a goal that most Americans have longed for...no matter who is responsible." I don't see the vitriol that you are referencing in that comment. In fact, I feel your comment is much more inflammatory than my blog. I should point out thatmy comments were mainly based on Facebook comments and private emails and not news sources. If that was not clear, then that should be clarified as well...I was reacting to the public's reaction to these events. You are free to react as you please but I think your accusations of me are not fair, especially for using theology to support a political position. My comments on Obama were separate from my theology on Bin Laden's death. I was simply reacting to what I was hearing and seeing from a wide range of opinions expressed, as I said, mainly on Facebook. As for building unity in the body...Todd, these comments were made on my blog, which is private. It is not the pulpit from which I preach week after week nor is it a pastoral office. You should know that I would never make these types of references from the pulpit and do not use my position as pastor to further any one political agenda. I wish some churches in America could say the same. I appreciate the dialogue but you should know that your tone is one of accusation and anger rather than seeking understanding. How does this build the body?
Hi Jodi, I appreciate your response, but I do stand by what I saw in the content of your blog. You were not even historically correct. For instance, Ronald Reagan wrote and stated numerous times that he didn't take credit for the bringing down of the Berlin Wall. However, most historians, both left and right, have given him credit for greatly influencing this event. You stated Bush "may have" some input to this result. President Obama stated that President Bush's actions "made it possible" and invited him to join him at Ground Zero on Thursday. If politicians are working together and being united, why would you, as a spiritual leader, think it is appropriate to plant seeds of division? I beleive you did. And, as such felt led to say something. Remember, appropriate anger, which was at least my intention, is not necessarily "un-Christ like" behavior.
ReplyDeleteOK Todd, enough is enough. Let's remember: This is an opinion blog, mainly my opinion, not a news source or a historical document. I'm sorry if you feel I am sowing seeds of division...that is not my intention but rather was to point out that I was seeing seeds of division around me that I felt were unnecessary at this time. I stated clearly that President Obama did not act alone that it is likely that those who went before him had much to do this event. If that wasn't strong enough for you, you are entitled to think that. I was in no way seeking to proclaim that President Obama was soley responsible for this event, but rather to point out that to say he isn't deserving of major credit is wrong. It's fine for you to be angry with my opinion but that's all this blog is...my opinion. That's wy I write a blog...I like to be able to say what's on mind. We clearly see this from different viewpoints. That's OK with me...is it OK with you?
ReplyDeleteTodd, I think Jodi has plenty of support for claiming that Obama´s opponents are not giving him enough credit.
ReplyDeleteThere are many that can be called opponents, but let´s pick Limbaugh, palin and Fox. I think it´s fair to call Fox an opponent considering several of their reports, but I don´t want to completely link-bomb Jodi´s blog more than necessary so please contact me if you want more links on the matter of Fox on Obama.
If we start with Limbaugh, yes he is playing the name game with Osama-Obama and he mocks that Obama deserves credit.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html
Palin has earlier made the claim that Obama is a man who hangs around terrorists,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/05/usa.uselections2008
and if you see a twitter message from her giving credit to Obama for the action, you let me know
http://twitter.com/#!/sarahpalinusa or on fb
https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150170174408435
Fox played fun with Obamas name while reporting th news. They did it both textwise, and orally. I don´t consider that its likely that they make both these errors by chance on the same day.
Text wise
http://twitpic.com/4s76an
Orally
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0V1kr6KiAw
What bothers me the most is that apart from not giving credit, this mocking foreign name thing should be called what it is. I am a big friend of calling things with their right name, and there is no other name for it. Well if it was mistakes there is another name for it of course.....Incompetence. I am sorry if this comes of as going on attack. But blatant racism is not something that can be left unchallenged.
Greetings, Petter
Sorry for the double post, but for some reason my post got cut off.
ReplyDeleteHi Petter. Thank you for the links. Some of them I have seen before, but I appreciate your thoroughness. Yes, you are correct that people have said Obama, instead of Usama. However, if you are going to call all people racist who have done this, you are going to have to include Joe Biden, Harry Reid, the late Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, and numerous others. Unfortunately, the names are similar. This is not some racist remark on my part, it's just a reality. However, I haven't heard anyone in the media purposefully switch these names during this news event. I don't know about Limbaugh, I don't listen to him and he should never be considered anything more than entertainment.
However, I still fail to see what this has to do with what I took exception to in Jodi's blog. It always (now I'm not referring to Jodi here) amazes me how Christians can feel commanded to reach down into their hearts and apply aspects of Grace to the likes of an Usama Bin Laden, yet can casually attack and demonize those who they feel have a different political point of reference.
Hi Petter, My last paragraph was not directed to you either. I appreciate the dialogue and have great respect for both you and Jodi. Cheers!
ReplyDeleteHi Todd.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your post. I don´t take offense, and I appreciate the conversation, and respect our differences in opinion. About forgiving Usama bin Ladin.
I don´t think it´s up to me to do that, or anyone else who hasn´t lost a loved one. As one father who lost a son said, his experience is very different from those who felt that their national pride was hurt.
Regarding our differences as conservative Christians and liberal Christians. I think there really is an astronomical distance between us. I can only speak for myself (and perhaps my parents who have said the same thing). Apart from that we believe in the same God, there is very very very little we have in common. I have lived the last 4 years in Poland, and my differences with Catholics are the same as those with conservative Christians. Just last Sunday on the beatification of the former pope (it is slander to call JP 2 pope in Poland btw, he must be called holy father, but the new pope is just a pope however), people could pay to be included in a huge portrait of JP 2 on the wall of the biggest church. When it comes to core values I have more in common with atheists than I have with the Catholic church or conservative Christians. Taxes that finance welfare for poor, Taxes that finance public healthcare for the poor, environmental issues, union rights, education, the view of homosexuals,bisexuals and transexuals, and yes as you can see the list goes on and on and on. If I seriously believed that Catholics and conservative Christians were right about who God was, I would immediately unfriend God on facebook. I don´t believe they are however, so therefore the only conclusion is that we have perhaps nothing in common then the fact that we pray to the same God.
Greetings, Petter
Hi Petter, Thank you for your post. Before I begin, I just wanted to point out that my cousin p office was at Marsh Mcclellan, on the same floor and approximately 13 feet to the left of where the first jet hit the towers. September 11, 2001, also happened to be his 48th birthday. In addition, I had another friend in the South Tower, 31 years old, who was killed in the collapse, while carrying a woman in a wheelchair down the stairs. However, I have never celebrated the killing of any of the terrorists, including Bin Laden, and as, I believe, clearly stated in my posts, agree with Jodi on this issue. Though, I do think there is Biblical authority for celebrating when God has blessed you in being able to defeat a foe. Where should the line be drawn? I don't know. However, I feel more comfortable being in Jodi's camp on this one, in this particular situation.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the reason I wanted to respond to your post is that I think it exemplifies exactly why I was criticizing Jodi's post for including the extra political "zingers." You seem extremely bitter and I feel this bitterness against "conservative" Christians or vice versa, against "liberal" Christians, for many people is fed by irresponsible comments by people they are culturally conditioned to have respect for: clergy, professionals, and other authority figures. You might have very good reason to be bitter, but I find it extremely interesting that, because I disagreed with Jodi, adding what I felt to be disparaging comments, you reached the conclusion that I was a "conservative." ( by the way, for both you and Jodi, from my more recent experiences speaking in academic settings such as Berkeley and Stanford, the new accepted terms are "left" and "right"). Actually, I am not a "conservative", or "right" and most likely, agree with a lot of Jodi's political beliefs. You have no idea what my feelings are on helping the poor ( I have spent almost ten years of my working life, working full time for no salary with the poor and inter-city ministries.) You have no idea what my political leanings are ( I have voted for a congressman who has been called "the most liberal man in the House.). You have no idea what my stand on immigrants is ( I have given large portions of my salary and worked with relief organizations and have actually sought White House intervention in obtaining refugee status for numerous individuals.). Yet, you judge me? You know about what I stand for and support, based solely on the fact that I disagreed with Jodi? While we are all responsible for our own actions, I do believe you are a victim of what you have been indoctrinated with, no different than those people you dislike for listening to Rush Limbaugh. (I got this from your earlier posts.) The problem I had with Jodi, is I felt that the interjected zingers" were interjected negatively and at an inappropriate time, which could very easily make a "conservative" feel about "liberals", the way you feel about "conservatives" and Catholics. (I'm not saying this to start another argument with Jodi, I just want to explain to you the reason for my concern.). I think you would be the first to agree that your negative feelings towards other Christians is not "enjoyable" or "healthy" for your spiritual life. So, why should these negative feelings, which I believe have no spiritual basis or value, to the contrary, be validated? Why is my simple statement that we should refrain from such comments, defining me as a "conservative?"
Hi Todd.
ReplyDeleteI am deeply sorry for your loss during 9/11 and understand that it was a tragedy for you and others who lost loved ones.
Let´s go back to how this started though. Jodi makes a post about healing not harming rhetoric. You say you basically agree, forgive me this sounds like one of those research papers when the author starts by thanking his opponent for previous work: and it is usually a signal that things are about to get really nasty.
And yes it did: You think that it is ironic that the title is healing not harming rhetoric, and then makes the accusation that Jodi is abusing her role by hiding a political agenda behind spiritual issues.
Why did I think you are a conservative. Well basically because how you reacted, and that you say that you have not seen any signs of people not crediting Obama.
Let´s first be honest and say that prior to this there have been plenty of pretty nasty accusations against Obama birth-certificate, communist and other names from Tea-party people and like minded.
I give you several examples of how Obama was mocked, and you say that it is easy to pronounce it wrong. Sure, but at least on my keyboard the B and S key are not to close to each other. I rarely by mistake write the United Btateb of America. And I assume that Fox has some sort of editor before the text is presented. So I have no problem with calling that way of reporting racism.
And when you say that you are unaware of it, my best explanation is that you do not see it because you are conservative, and it is easy to be blind to injustices done to people one do not sympathize with.
But of course I could be wrong. You could indeed be a liberal, and if I was wrong sorry. Although I have no idea of knowing that.
No I am not a bitter person. But the way you jumped in and attacked the writer of the blog is really way out of line, and your attack was as I said pretty nasty but I assume you didn´t see that. As you probably know the net is not the best forum to judge personalities from. Speaking of assuming by the way. I assumed your political side, you made a negative assumption of my personality by labeling me a bitter person. Then you say that I am indoctrinated. Really, me indoctrinated. Now I am very tempted to really tell you my hearts opinion, but I will spare you from that. Let me just say that there is a far greater risk of you being indoctrinated. I do know what I am talking about, I have lived 1,5 years in the U.S, and my wife has lived 10 years in the U.S. I have attended both US High school and College. And just as an example of indoctrination my host family doubted that the pastors in my church (out of which one is the author of this blog) could really be Christians since they don´t support Bush.
I am not bitter, but I am not afraid of speaking out against shameless accusations. And that is what your accusation is when you say that there is a hidden political agenda dressed in a spiritual message in the post that started all this.
OK guys...here's the deal...I am happy for dialogue and I think (hope) we've all learned some things from this exchange, but now it's time to stop the back and forth, OK? I'll remove any further posts from either of you on this topic. Out of respect for your engagement, I will leave all that is there. Suffice to say, there is much assumption, much to learn and much to grow from in all of it for all of us. Thanks for being so engaged.
ReplyDelete