I'm interested to know what people think about this. I recently received an email from someone who shared with me that a speaker at a Covenant Camp publicly shared that he felt the ordination of women by the Covenant was a huge mistake. He sited I Corinthians 11 as his basis. Now...people have very different ideas about how to interpret this passage. In fact, the rest of the email was informing me that she recently came across an old talk that my husband and I did at Seattle Pacific University where we also sited the same scripture passage but dealt with it in such a manner that didn't undermine women's ordination.
OK, so we disagree. Here's the rub for me. Our denomination, the Evangelical Covenant Church of America ordains women and has established a Biblical and theological basis for such. So I'm wondering how appropriate people think it is for a speaker at at Covenant supported institution, like one of our camps, to publicly undermine the Covenant's position with his own? I just wonder where being part of a denomination that believes things that one personally does not becomes a problem and do we as leaders and people of influence have the right to assert to our opposing position when we are working in a situation where we are in the service of the denomination?
Do you get my question? It's late in Sweden and I'm tired and irritated by this whole discussion. It's a good thing I'm preaching on kindness this week. 'Nuff said. weigh in please. I am open to a conversation with integrity even though I am personally a little put off.
Thanks...
I am currently living in southern California figuring out what it means to be back in the US.
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I have a problem with people who disagree with the denomination's view on things stating their opinion in a denominational venue. I have experienced a situation where a fellow staff member (worship leader) publicly made it known that he did not believe women could be in church leadership/ministry. It created a lot of confusion but fortunately was adddressed by the church board. Not only was I in a pastoral position at the time but so was another female. I've heard of other situations where Sunday School teachers were telling the children's classes that only men could be pastors. Again, the Pastor addressed the issue by saying that the person could either respect the Covenant's stance or find a different church community.
ReplyDeleteI have differences with other denomination's views on issues but would not use a public forum in it to address them. One on one or smaller group dialogues involving mutual listening and conversation is a more appropriate venue.
It would be wise if camps would have speakers sign something to acknowledge awareness of the Covenant's views so that everything is laid out and problems are prevented.
Jodi,
ReplyDeleteeverywhere;
in churches, in wars, in family life, in schools, in companies, in boards; woman are seen as a threat and very often not only Questioned but also victims of violance physical and oral. We all want to forget it, but the ugly face of evil shows up unexpected and not invited.
Dont´t be irritated, be angry, and don`t be surprised!
You as a pastor and a woman have made a difference, and I´m glad and thankful for you and all other woman ordinated as pastors or priests.
So, to answer your question, my view is that in our church it is NOT acceptable in our official assemblies to question the ordination of woman as pastors or priests. We have a clear theological standpoint in that issue today and our woman members and pastors must be respected and not forever having to take part in a questioning of their role and as a consequense, their value.
All best,
Birgitta Johansson-Hedberg
OK, it's been a while since we went through this in Rob Johnston's class, but I think the first part of verse 5. (and makes much more sense that 1st Chronicles which I started to go to, seeing I C. . . as I was leafing through. "And every woman who prays or prophesies. . ." Do you get that? There are women praying and giving prophesies and it is a given fact in the Christian Church. It's not conditional, "If a woman should. . ." Paul recognizes it is happening and should happen - a concept that is radical to the culture. So, in short, probably not the best evidence to present in support of his position. More to the point I guess, doesn't sound like the right context for the discussion. If fact, sounds very divisive. I agree Jodi, not appropriate.
ReplyDeleteHi Jodi,
ReplyDeleteThough I'm not a Covenantor, I agree with the church's ordination of women. But I believe that ideas and opinions have to be freely exchanged, even if they are "bad" or "wrong." Is there really a wrong opinion? The validity of a position has to be dealt with in the free exchange of ideas, not be squelching certain opinions.
Chuck
I posted the above comment. It wasn't my intention be anonymous-I clicked the wrong button.lol
ReplyDeletePersonally, I don't think that it was appropriate for him to put forth his personal views in a "teaching atmosphere" that contradicted the values and beliefs of the Covenant Church. I think that there is a time and place to have discussions about opposing viewpoints, but this was not the time or place. I find it disrespectful to the church and the denomination. I think that this demonstrates poor oversight on part of the camp. They should have known what the speaker would be teaching and not let this be the venue for personal opinion. Hopefully this situation will bring to light a need for better oversight of their speakers. I also think that this brings up the idea that maybe this topic needs to be addressed more within the Covenant Church. I know that there are pastors and congregations that don't support women in ministry. How should those situations be addressed? Can pastors/churches/ speakers have differing opinions about such a topic when they are committed to a denomination that contradicts their personal beliefs? Hhhmmm ... :)
ReplyDeleteJodi...You have been ordained to ministry and that is a covenant that is indeed sacred. It is totally inappropriate for that sacred coventant to be undermined by a speaker within such a setting. Why are women still being asked to continue to fight this battle?????? The argument is exhausting, non-sensical and diminishing of life....so why continue to perpetrate it publicly and from positions of power and responsbiility?
ReplyDeleteJodi, please know that I regularly thank and praise God for your presence and willingness to live into the calling to ordination. I know how deeply God moves through you to bring about life in the people to whom you minister and I am so thankful to have been one of those people. The life giving presence of women in ministry is what we should be spending time talking about! Thankyou for naming your irritation and know that you are not alone in that response. Lord, Let our irritation and even our anger, fuel the vision you have implanted within us, for justice and your kingdom come, on this earth!